Discussion Forums - Questions about SwapaDVD

More than a gripe, than a question. 

Twice I received the same set of DVDs - sealed.  Both were counterfeits.  I ate the credits on the first set, I needed a multidsc case anyway.  But counterfeit discs AGAIN!  This time the case was smashed (crappy packaging job by the sender).

I'm considering asking everyone I get a disc from to please not send sealed DVDs.  I feel bad, the sender didn't know what they were sending.

Thoughts?

Wow, that's discouraging. I guess I'd better be looking more closely at sealed discs that I receive. Tracy, did the ones you received have the security stickers on the case underneath the cellophane/shrinkwrap? (Although, not all distributors use those stickers anyway.) What kinds of titles were these? "Popular" ones? The titles I usually get through the club tend to be a bit more on the obscure side, relatively, so I wonder how often such would be counterfeited...

I keep ordering new sets on Ebay that end up being counterfeit, and they come sealed.  It's quite discouraging.  There doesn't seem to be a way to determine legitimacy when ordering either.  I do check the seller's rating, but that doesn't tell us much about legitimacy. I have much better luck with pawns here.

Tracy, I didn't answer your question. When I order through swap, I do not do that check for bootlegs (my computer drive doesn't seem to be set up), but I have received obviously burned discs with blue undersides.  I will RWAP those.  When the issue of bootleg seems to apply is if one is trading something again.  I don't think most people know how to tell the difference.

I bought a sealed set at HPB and only learned it was bootleg when I traded it.  :(...

Kevin - There were no security stickers.  But that's a good point, I should look for those when buying used sealed DVDs.  The set I got here was PBS, so pretty popular.

Gloria - EBay is frustrating, I pretty much expect bootlegs there.  Does your computer have a disc burner?  If you can copy (or start to copy) a disc that's a give-away.  I agree most people don't know what to look for.

Shellie - I no longer buy sealed DVDs from HPB because I encountered the same thing.  I've sent sealed DVDs too, I hate to think I "stuck" someone with something they can't trade.

Tracy: Regarding security stickers, I think it's mostly just the really major studio labels that use them, so their absence wouldn't necessarily say the DVDs are counterfeit. However, it would just be a factor in approaching the DVD with some amount of caution.

This is certainly making me more wary. I haven't been to any second hand stores since the middle of March, but whenever I do venture back out (I really miss going to HPB and Disc Replay and Reckless Records in Chicago and the burbs), I'm going to be very vigilant.

"If you can copy (or start to copy) a disc that's a give-away."

I've heard this multiple times now and am starting to wonder if it is always true.  I recently purchased brand new and sealed right off of Amazon Prime these 2 series:

Project Blue Book Season 1

Knightfall - Season 1

Both of these are History Channel series and both of these sets have discs which will copy straight to my hard drive.  Perhaps some studios could care less if a title is SD?  Only HD worthy of protection?  Are other Studios doing this?  IDK...

Kevin, I have also seen many titles in factory wrap without the security stickers.

The Swap Team gives some guidelines on determining title credibility.  I couldn't find more than this:

"If your DVD is an original (not a copy) of a movie, in its original case (a replacement case is fine as long as it is the same type as the original) with original outside artwork, the UPC is printed on the item (artwork or DVD), and it is playable, it can be listed here."

"Burned copies of DVDs are illegal, and cannot be swapped here.  Posting burned copies of DVDs will jeopardize membership."

Has anyone else purchased titles new from Amazon like what I mention above?

Bear in mind that some legit DVDs actually are on burned discs. For example, the DVDs in the Warner Archive Collection are mostly all burned discs. (Not the Blu-rays in that collection--those are all pressed discs.) Some titles sold online-only, such as through Amazon, are burned discs. Just because a disc is burned does not by itself determine that a disc is counterfeit.

HOWEVER... Determining whether or not any particular disc is counterfeit (not the entire published run of the title but the actual physical copy in your hand) is not an easy thing to do. And that, I suppose, is the main reason why burned discs are FORBIDDEN on this site. Even if they are legit, they CANNOT be traded here. There is too much of a risk of counterfeit discs being involved.

I have purchased a few titles from Amazon that are on burned discs. I knew they were such from the moment of ordering, and thus was neither surprised  nor concerned when they arrived as burned discs. Such titles are usually specialty items with limited market and/or from companies that aren't able to maintain large inventories of pressed discs. As I understand it, often the manufacture of these is outsourced to Amazon's fulfillment centers.

Samuel, I looked up both of those titles of yours on Amazon, but there is no indication that they are released on burned discs. (Although I do think I have noticed some other History Channel titles being offered that way.) It's certainly possible that History Channel didn't think it worth their trouble to use copy protection on those, but I'm not sure why. (I plead total ignorance about how copy protection works in the mastering process for a disc, and what kind of royalties are involved for the owner of the copy protection method.)

Samuel, I have purchased one set I wanted from Amazon that was MOD. (Made on Demand) I don't remember the title. 

You are right Kevin.  The discs in those 2 sets are the normal pressed ones, and not the MOD's.  I believe they are the real deal.

I admit, I've never tried to copy discs that I assumed were legit.  Interesting.

I used to  use a software called Nero Disc Speed.  It was free.  You put a disc in and it told you the region code, copyright, and number of layers.  It helped me recognize common elements of lesser quality counterfeits.   I agree the site is not very helpful in the regard.

Personally, I've become paranoid, I think, is what has happened.  Bootleggers have gotten rather talented over the past decade.  And there have been a couple occasions now where I sent out what I thought was a completely legit title, and then had the member tell me it was not, due to the 'copy and paste' test.  Still, I don't test everything before sending, especially if I'm rushed.

The other thing which makes me a bit suspicious are the differing levels of SD which certain studios find acceptable.  Some legit discs are verging on pixilated, even with the upconversion firmware on most players.  This used to be a factor in tipping me off on the possibility of something being bootlegged, due to the compression algorithms being used.  Now it means who knows what?

I wonder if studios do this to push customers into purchasing the HD version instead.  And, what is increasingly becoming the case, is that the HD version only exists in digital purchase format, or actually having to subscribe to their streaming service or cable channel.  Many studios are now skipping the Blu-ray or 4K mediums.

The other thing I keep seeing is a studio will release DVD and Blu-ray versions with the first season.  Then seasons, say 2-4, are only available in MOD format, and very pixilated discs, at that.  And the reviews for those titles always reflect the irritation of collectors.

I think most studios, at this juncture, would like to completely do away with physical media altogether, in lieu of having us all streaming everything or purchasing digital copies.  Sort of like the push to digitize the Dollar bill at the moment.  Minimalist culture, where everything in your hand is virtual.

Samuel - I think I'm a little paranoid too.  There are times when I suspect a bootleg but it's just a feeling.  Something just looks a little off.

But there are other times when I think it a bootleg is a very good possibility.  The times when I think a bootleg is a good possibility is when I check the file size and try to copy it.  So it's multiple factors really.

To me the initial signs that a DVD could be a bootleg are the DVD's title spelled out around the hub.  Another sign is the hash marks around the hub are uniform and dull gray.  These hashmarks should look more like a UPC and they should reflect light.

The initial signs aren't a guarantee either.  I recall ordering a video from QVC and the name of the DVD was spelled out on the hub.  This wasn't anthything from a major studio though.  I don't expect DVDs from major studios to look like that.

I think everyone tries to avoid bootlegs, but they are difficult to identify.  It seems maybe we've all traded with the same person that is checking discs.  What have you all done?  Lost your set, returned credits or replaced the set?  I've asked for mine to be returned and ended up not just buying them back but paying an additional credit for postage.  I find this a nuisance, and would rather just post to the system rather than have someone checking discs, and taking a week's time to do so, and having to deal with this after the fact.  Particularly since this seems to be the only instance where postablility rules don't apply: playable discs with postable upcs can be claimed as bootlegs. 

What software are you using to try to copy a Dvd?

To test for bootlegs, one doesn't need software, although I've seen some use software.  If you want to see if a disc is a 'bootleg', you insert it into your computer dvd drive, open up 'my computer', and there you will see an icon which says something like 'DVD RW Drive'.  Do a right click on it, and the option to 'copy' will be displayed, which you select.  Then open a folder in which you wish to 'paste' the copied item.  Do a right click, and the option to 'paste' will be displayed, which you select.  This is how it works in Windows.

If the disc has copy protection, the computer will not be able to complete the task.

Samuel, thank you very much for that info.

I am going to try it on off the beaten path Non-Hollywood discs. 

I read that not all discs are copyright protected.

I would hate to accuse something of being counterfeit just because it might be a low budget product. 

 To start copying a disc and not completing the copying does not prove definitively it's a counterfeit disc. 

Here's what my computer guy says

DRM takes several forms, some forms prevent the contents of disk from being copied and some DRM doesn’t protect the disk, but protects the contents.  So you might be able to copy the disk, but you won’t be able to play the contents, which you won’t know until you try and play it.  Also, they might just encrypt for example the video files, so your copy might not error out until it hits those particular files.

 

The industry does not have a standard for DRM or DVD/BD creation, so different companies do it differently ways.  What might work for one, one work for another.  Also some older DVDs, might not have DRM at all.

Well, that is very interesting.  I will have to try playing what copies over from those History Channel titles.  Perhaps they are copy protected after all?  Thanks for the research Valerie.

And interesting that there is no industry standard for DRM, and that older titles may not have it at all.  I would assume this would be more likely if a film were in public domain as well?  I'll have to have a look at the hub hash marks which Tracy was talking about too.

Thanks for the research Valerie :)

Yes, thanks for looking this up!  This is just as another player suggested awhile back--that the copy thing is not definitive.  Whew!  So for Valerie or Samuel, what is DRM anyway?

I read Tracy's post closely and am not sure what those " hub hash marks" are.  Are those on the underside around the hub; the play side of the disc? 

@ Kevin, You wrote, "Bear in mind that some legit DVDs actually are on burned discs."

Since most of us play in games, we are aware of MODs and that sellers, such as Amazon, have a license to burn discs.  Many of those identify right on the label that they are MODs as well as in the tiny writing on the back of the art.  I do see the Warner Archives posted into the system now and again even though we aren't supposed to trade them; and they appear on many people's WL.  People that WL those titles, I assume, are aware that they are MODs and would never complain about receiving one.  Also, I have noted often that Amazon sells MODs of titles that can still be found on normal DVD.  Also, FYI, we do play MODs in games, which is the only place they are allowed on this site.

Others that are often burned discs that are legit are some of the documentaries.  I've had a number of these, and generally those are keepers.  Some of them I've ordered directly from nonprofit organizations that sell dvds. 

Gloria - what I mean by hashmarks (bad terminology on my part) - the inner ring markings on the playable side of a DVD that look a bit like a barcode.  These lines should be varying widths apart and reflect light when you hold them at different angles.  This is one of the first things I look for.  Newer bootlegs have these lines too, but the spacing is uniform and the lines are dull.  

I've gotten MODs from Amazon too, and the artwork was clearly marked. 

Thanks, Tracy.  I thought that's what you meant to describe, but wanted clarification. I've noticed how some are uniform, too. I haven't noticed them being dull and non-reflective though, but will look for that.

Late reply, but... I'd like to add some comments.

Many DVDs released by big studios cannot be copied to a hard drive because of a standard copy protection called CSS; if you try to copy the files, the drive will say there's errors in the files and they cannot be copied. Basically: If you own a DVD by Warner, Universal, 20th Century Fox, Sony, Disney, etc: The disc is copy protected with this. More info can be read at Wikipedia.

Nowadays there's different kinds of protection that are much more complex than this, but they also make the discs a bit slower to load on some players and PC playback software. (Which made newer Redbox rentals a pain in the butt to watch!)

This protection costs money, I think the licensing fee has to be paid for every single title... And a lot of DVD distributors - particularly ones that did Public Domain content - won't pay for it, so they just release their movies with no protection. Those discs can be copied easily with any software. I collect a lot of PD distirbutors and I've never seen any of the smaller ones use copy protection. However companies like Echo Bridge and Mill Creek do.

There are also printed DVD bootlegs that look just like a normal DVD, only well, they're bootlegs. There's this specific company from Mexico called DU Video, which basically sold Mexican TV dubs of anime shows on DVD, and every one of their products was pressed at a factory. I figure a bunch of the ones people are buying are like that. I've also owned a lot of anime bootlegs that were factory pressed.

Sorry for rambling, but I had been doing some research on this stuff a while ago for a project I was working on and I tend to geek out a bit, heh.